Browse more videos. When he arrived on the scene the aircraft had dispersed, so he duly joined up with some other Flying Fortresses that were lacking adequate escort. How do/should administrators estimate the cost of producing an online introductory mathematics class? ). Learn how your comment data is processed. the concrete taxiways, one of Eders Jumo engines suffered a flame-out and he Messerschmitt Me 262, WerkNr. Which Allied aircraft scored the most air-to-air kills against the Me 262 in WWII? (#D144,938 in June 4, 1946). Its elliptical wings made Spitfire beautiful and turn more tightly. The shortage of drop tanks at Ramitelli forced the maintainers to get creative. So, when attacked by jets, the '51 pilot would have to Robert F. Dorr is an author, U.S. Air Force veteran, and retired American diplomat who Great article, Robert! The Me 262 was nearly 100 mph faster than the P-51D, which put the Mustang at a distinct disadvantage. Very good article, one that needs to be repeated again and again. was just two P-51H fuselages welded together, wrong, The P-51 is best known for its long-range escort duty, while the Me 262 was a significant threat to Allied forces. Log in or Sign up to interact with the community. Dario Leone, Via Mazzini 45, 27030, Langosco (Pavia), VAT IT 02787650189. The attack on the bombers was ineffective because of the prompt action of my flight in breaking up the attack.. intercept enemy bombers attacking oil targets. The Messerschmitt Me 262 Schwalbe (English: "Swallow") was the world's first operational jet-powered fighter aircraft. With a passion for aviation, as well as surfing and scanning the web, Rocco is in his element analyzing aircraft data and the differences and similarities between aircraft. I don't have a resource to cite, but I recall a video interview with a then-elderly Mustang pilot who described the speed of ME262 climb and said he shot one down by out turning it and "setting up a line of 50 cal" for it to fly into. Whether taking down Nazis or wowing crowds at air shows, the P-51 Mustang always knew how to make an impact. Messerschmitt Me 262, WerkNr. Even after the Reich introduced the Messerschmitt Me 262 jet fighter, which was faster than any warplane in Allied hands, Brown and the other Tuskegee Airmen continued to do what fighter pilots always do: They fought aggressively. Essentially a trials and development unit, it mounted the world's first jet fighter operations. p40 warhawk, landung, warhawk, ww2, p-40, flugzeug, antik, wwii, p40, klassisch, curtiss, HD-Hintergrundbild take-off. in two sections and the plane rolled over and went into a flat spin. The Spitfire? film, was eventually credited with the destruction of two Me 262s. Rogers achieved a rare MiG-15 jet Kelly Johnson drew and considered a twin-fuselage design similar to Twin Mustang, B-17 waist or turret gunners perhaps? As the summer faded away into fall, encounters between Allied fighters and jet jobs slowly increased, but there was something of a cat-and-mouse nature about them. WinbiTV. I was still indicating about 400mph and I had Both planes also significantly impacted the war the P-51 helped to turn the tide in favor of the Allies, while the Me 262 was a significant threat to Allied forces. The Me 262 was the first operational jet fighter in history. an equal footing, despite the differences in powerplant and top speed. Due to his boost, renewed effort and resources were put into the Messerschmitt Me262 . Its power and grace make it a popular choice for air shows and one heck of a joyride for any lucky pilot lucky enough to take the controls. (Air Force af.mil)] Another time, when on patrol, he shot down several US B-17 Flying Fortress bombers that didn't react to repeated warnings. The desegregation of the armed forces in 1948 and the civil rights movement of the 1950s and 1960s gave us a new world, Brown said. [ref: Wagner, McLaren]. The German response was the construction of a "flak lane" of over 150 emplacements of the 20 mm Flakvierling quadruple autocannon batteries at Rheine-Hopsten to protect the approaches. November 1940 . Reported by some sources to have lost his life that day, Ambs actually walked away from the experience and lived a long life (he would live to see history buffs build and fly an Me 262 replica in a new century), but he never fought again. The briefer is Lt. (later Col.) Edward Gleed. To be fair the opponents the North American Aviation Pursuit 51 D Mustang series battled were Messerschmitt Bf-109 Gustavs (Mid and Late series) and Focke-Wulf Fw 190 Dora series. Messerschmitt Bf 109: Country: Germany: Germany: Type of aircraft: Fighter: MR Fighter: First Flight: 1939: 1935: Introduction: 1941: 1937: Crew: 1: 1: Number built: 20000: . One of Browns fellow airmen, Capt. The Messerschmitt Me-262 was the first jet fighter to enter operational service. [ref: Fighting Hitlers Jets by Robert Dorr] jockey would claim the first Me 262 scalps. Kommando claims P-51s shot down MiG-15s in South Korea, but reverse seems more likely, Answer (1 of 17): Some interesting fighters are often overlooked in discussions of three "1st generation" jets: the Me 262 (operational from 1944), F-86 (1949) and MiG-15 (1949). So fast and hard to catch that the P-51 pilots were only able to follow the a/c on landing or wait in squadron strength for the sleek birds to take off..aka "Rat Catching". And the Me-262 would take advantage on their speed instead. Two seconds later, I saw another piece hit close to the first piece. (The figures are not totally reliable. Short story taking place on a toroidal planet or moon involving flying. Developed and produced by North American Aviation, this aircraft was originally intended to serve as a long-range escort fighter for Allied bombers. Ziegler's book describes Me-262's top speed was reported as 515MPH or 540MPH ", LA Times: Answer (1 of 8): Here are two tangles between P-51's and ME262's, which typify such engagements. So they would loiter high up near the German airfields, dive through the Flak barrages and try to catch them landing. Faircount Media Group. flame come out near the right wing root. possibly he may have chosen it if requirements called for two-seats. Its innovative design inspired many modern aircraft today. The Hawker Tempest? [ref: P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? Hope you enjoy! This title explores the formidable Me 262 and P-51 Mustang, two planes which represented the state-of-the-art in terms of design, performance, and combat capability for their respective air forces. Facebook Like button and social widgets (Facebook, Inc.), the Me 262 outclassed anything the Allies had in terms of speed and firepower. (Nowotny apparently was shot down after failing to outdive Mustangs) The 332nds aircraft had distinctive markings that gave them the name Red Tails. U.S. Air Force photo. I confirm that I have read, consent and agree to The Aviation Geek Club Privacy Policy. Drew, who had been leading the 375th FS on an escort mission for a box of B-17s on their return from targeting one of the refineries, observed a dogfight taking place below the bombers and, leaving his section, had dropped down with his own flight to investigate. Approximately 1400 models have been built, Menu. F-35 Lightning II vs F/A-18E Super Hornet, F-35 Lightning II vs F-16E Fighting Falcon BLOCK 60. and 258th victories, but as he returned home he was apparently intercepted by state-of-the-art in terms of design, performance and combat capability for Whatever the case, a short Within seconds, his Me 262 began vibrating violently as the tail was buffeted back and forth. What WWII fighter raid did my great-uncle misremember? Roscoe Brown left the military for pursuits in the academic world but remains active in veterans affairs and civil rights. 3:53. for take-off, but at that moment the P-51D of 361st FG pilot 1Lt Urban L. Drew The P51s iconic design features sleek lines and a distinctive shark mouth painted on the nose, making it truly stand out among its contemporaries. Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 (2019) L'argus. They include: The Me 262 was significantly faster than the P-51, reaching speeds up to 702 Mph. Discord - https://discord.gg/CVrJQ8aTwitter - Twitter.com/TJ3GamingTwitch - Twitch.com/TJ3GamingInstagram - Instagram.com/TJ3Gaming Spitfire developed into a different airplane (Spiteful), Also the RAF Thunderbolts never suffered an air to air loss, but fighter oppositoin was limited. But it was very slow and fragile. Welcome to WWII Forums! May 2003, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: CrazyD ], http://forums.bfnation.net/viewtopic.php?t=9765, http://www.mysa.com/mysanantonio/links/yeager.shtml, http://www.acepilots.com/planes/p51d_mustang.html, http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p51_10.html, (You must log in or sign up to reply here. So, which one is better? 'He Not really, the P-51D Mustang was certainly a good fighter. I kept horsing back on the stick and my bullets Piper PA-48 Enforcer. 4 x 30mm MK 108 Cannons. planes that were apparently destroyed twice. P-51 Mustang vs. Messerschmitt Me-262 - Which WWII fighter was better The P-51 Mustang and the Messerschmitt Me-262 were two of the most advanced fighters to see air combat in World War II. Amidst the chaos on the runway, It was a superb day and night bomber interceptor, with a speed advantage so great, and armament so powerful, that it could easily intercept and destroy allied heavy bombers, while practically ignoring their swarms of piston-engined escort fighters, and the . For example: the great speed advantage of the In the air around 100 got destroyed according to what I know, and that includes those shot down while landing taking off. External Bombload of up to 1,200lbs, 2 x 20mm Cannons (in addition to existing 4 x 30mm cannons) Coast Air Museum in Santa Rosa and an old friend of Col. Rogers. In addition, this site installs Google Analytics in version 4 (GA4) with anonymous data transmission via proxy. There are pros and cons to both aircraft. For this reason, the data transferred to GA will be made anonymous through a proxy system called "My Agile Pixel" which will replace your personal data such as the IP address with anonymous data and therefore not traceable to you. There is a massive scope there to unlock more speed with . The Mustang was designed in April 1940 by a team headed by James H. Kindelberger [5] of North American Aviation (NAA) in response to a requirement of . MiGs, and they were so much faster. Only veteran or lucky German pilots could survive in a Me-109. [ref: Flying to the Limit by Peter Caygill] I confirm that I want to send my data to receive news and promotions via email. While it had rocket fuel, a Me-163 was untouchable -- but after it burned its rocket-fuel, Me-163 was defenseless. Some might argue that it was due to a desire for technological superiority or a need for faster aircraft. In that month, the Messerschmitt Me 262 began to appear in combat. Clicking on "Refuse" or the X will refuse all profiling cookies. that first appeared in mid-1930s, first of which was Me-109. Browse more videos. Wrote Lane: He did not quite fill my gunsight. American industrialist and aircraft manufacturer, North American Aviation, began construction in 1940 after receiving a request from the British government. Red Tails: P-51 Mustang vs Messerschmitt Me 262 Davo De Gondolin 21.5K subscribers Subscribe 81K Share 9.9M views 8 years ago Combate Areo entre los Red Tails y la Luftwaffe Pelicula: Red Tails. 24 x Air-to-Air Unguided High-Explosive Rockets. Making its operational debut in the summer of 1944, and powered by the Jumo 004 jet engine, the Me 262 outclassed anything the Allies had in terms of speed and firepower. Drew recounted: I had started shooting from about 60 For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. They shot down 12 bombers and one fighter for the loss of three Me 262s. Join in if you dare! ", [ref: Flying to the Limit by Peter Caygill] The world's first operational jet fighter. he shot down a Soviet MIG jet. Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience. 2023 - Comparison - BVR - Dogfight. each of whom have been credited with a shared kill. Messerschmitt Me 262 (Schwalbe / Sturmvogel) North American P-51 Mustang RoC (ft) 3,937 3,475 ARMAMENT STANDARD: 4 x 30mm MK 108 automatic cannons in nose section. 1:08. Google Fonts is a service used to display font styles operated by Google Ireland Limited and serves to integrate such content into its pages. Footage courtesy of Bill Jaskelainen, Webmaster of 339th Fighter Group Website http://www.339thfg.com/On March 20th, 1945, 451 bombers and 355 fighters of the 8th Air Force were sent to bomb the shipyard, dock facilities and an oil refinery in Hamburg. Rogers achieved a rare MiG-15 jet Get the best aviation news, stories and features from The Aviation Geek Club in our newsletter, delivered straight to your inbox. In 1944, as Allied forces began to gain ground in Europe and the war seemed nearing its end, Nazi leaders were desperate for any advantage they could get. However, the initial prototypes did not meet performance expectations. The Finnish Buffaloes gave a very good account for themselves as well. (f-106deltadart.com). Feb 1, 2010 Thread starter #7 Zniperguy114 Airman 67 0 It just fought differently. over 500 alone are accredited to JG 7 but that is too high. Its one disadvantage -- its climb-rate wasn't good -- was solved in light-weight P-51H. (unknown artist) The problem was getting home. Lets take a look. The Mustang was actually in a better position to defend itself in a dogfight with an Me 262 than it was able to fend off Me 262 attacks on bombers. Why was the Me 262, one of the first operational jet fighters in history, developed and built? I am not going to downvote your answer because I appreciate your time and effort, but others here may since it offers nothing new not already included in the question (except another potentially good book I may add to my library), so be prepared (and please don't take it personally if someone does! What is the purpose of this D-shaped ring at the base of the tongue on my hiking boots? (Air Force af.mil), P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? The P-51 had a well-designed cockpit that was comfortable for the pilot and provided good visibility. (conservapedia.com), P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? Too fast to catch for the escorting Allied fighters, the Me 262s were almost impossible to head off. Some people prefer the look of the P-51 over the Me 262. Its elliptical wings made Spitfire beautiful and turn more tightly. The Mustang had a maximum speed of 437 mph while the Me 262 could fly at a maximum of . My way being that the P-51 is probaly in the top five piston fighter aircraft in history, and yes, that is also an opinion, But the Me 262 is the first, truely sucessful jet ever. This commission helps us to maintain and improve the forum for the benefit of our users. I did not see the pilot bail to his death. Each fuel drop tank is jettisoned, As the skies they try to cleanse. But which fighter was better? [ref: North American P-51H Mustang by David McLaren] its radiator inlet/outlet provided net thrust, and its streamlined airframe had extremely low drag. Site design / logo 2023 Stack Exchange Inc; user contributions licensed under CC BY-SA. The renowned fighter ace of World War II, General Adolf Galland took his first flight in a Messerschmitt Me262 in ay of 1943. Robert F. Dorr 4 x 12.7mm machine guns in wingsP-51D: 6 x .50 cal machine guns in wings. This is not say the Me 262 was invulnerable to enemy fighters: The Me 262 was difficult to counter because its high speed and rate of climb made it hard to intercept. But still, one can only imagine the devastation they could have caused if they had been mass-produced earlier in the war. defensive maneuver. The famous P-51 Mustang served many purposes during World War II and beyond. 3 years ago. Is a PhD visitor considered as a visiting scholar? "On November 8, 1950, the then Capt. Follow. Although innovative in 1935, by 1943, Me-109 was out-classed. 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I confirm that I want to send my data to receive news and promotions via email. Many incorrectly believe propeller P-51s were totally outclassed, and much slower, than Me-262 jets. 43:47. Something else entirely? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Clostermann. Just one solo German jet attacking, The first successful flight of a jet Me-262 occurred on the 18th of July, 1942. Drew claimed, and despite the failure of his gun camera to record the action on You are at a gateway to WWII discussion, research, exploration, & analysis. as within seconds, a P-51 would reach 500+MPH Over the German capital, they encountered Me 262s. I would have to say that 3/4's of the jet kills were to P-51 in aerial combat. OPTIONAL: External Bomb load of up to 1,200lb. 1:01. [ref: Hitlers Jet Plane by Mano Ziegler] mission of any strength was not mounted until the 7th, when a formation of Me Another significant difference is that the P-51 was primarily used as a bomber escort, while the Me 262 was mainly used for air combat. The African-American pilots were not finished dealing with the jet fighter that was one of Adolf Hitlers vaunted wunderwaffe (wonder weapons). As an Amazon Associate and eBay Partner, we may earn a commission when you click on these links and make a purchase. North American P-51 Mustang Messerschmitt Bf 109 Ceiling (m) 12,771 11,125 RATE-OF-CLIMB 3,475 ft/min [Diff.+175 feet] RATE-OF-CLIMB 3,300 ft/min [Diff.-175 feet] North American P-51 Mustang Messerschmitt Bf 109 RoC (ft) 3,475 3,300 ARMAMENT Dependent upon model, includes any of the following: But beyond its aesthetics, the P51 boasts impressive speed, a remarkable range, and an impressive armament that includes six .50 caliber machine guns. P-47 didn't have a propeller cone like FW-190 or Sea Fury had to reduce drag. FDCSYP Military Drills Poster P 51 Mustang Vs Messerschmitt Me 262 Fighter 11 Canvas Poster Wall Art Decor Print Picture Paintings for Living Room Bedroom Decoration 1624inch(4060cm) Brand: FDCSYP. History Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for historians and history buffs. Two seconds later, I saw another piece hit close to the first piece. Horten Ho-229 already have features of US stealth drones (flying wing, anti-radar material, shrouded exhausts). The Me 262 could be used for various tasks such as air combat, ground attack, and even intercepting flying bombs. Airplanes armament and equipment. He was one of almost a thousand African-American fliers known as the Tuskegee Airmen who overcame discrimination, mastered the challenge of piloting a combat aircraft, and served their country by doing battle in skies high over the Third Reich. Adolf Galland witnessed events from the ground. Highest kill ratio ever ? March 1945. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.military/L7m7gZlpnKQ, groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.military/, We've added a "Necessary cookies only" option to the cookie consent popup. So which aircraft is better? The words of general Ion Dobran, a former Romanian Bf . ), North American P-51H Mustang by David McLaren, Pilot Training Manual for the P-51 Mustang, video: "Eighth Air Force Fighter Combat vs ME-163 Rocket-Propelled and ME-162 Jet-Propelled Aircraft", P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? March 1945 off the Frankfurt Autobahn. Enemy jets forced to stay away, ironically, was goal of escorting Mustangs. fw-190-wurger. After seven Tempests were lost to flak at Hopsten in a week, the "Rat Scramble" was discontinued. 13:12. Out of nowhere, 25 Me 262s appeared, flying over 150 miles per hour faster than they could. Full text of the 'Sri Mahalakshmi Dhyanam & Stotram', Minimising the environmental effects of my dyson brain, The difference between the phonemes /p/ and /b/ in Japanese, Trying to understand how to get this basic Fourier Series. The only Me-163 gun-camera film known to exist. One a double ace (11.5 kills), the other a triple ace (16.25 kills). The P-51D Mustang? By clicking Post Your Answer, you agree to our terms of service, privacy policy and cookie policy. But, taking the letter, not necessarily the spirit, of this question, we are being asked which aircraft shot down the most 262s. German pilots were astounded to see a P-47 continue flying after firing all their ammunition at one. All rights reserved. Force Service in 1950 at the onset of the Korean Conflict. During the Vietnam war from what I have read the F-4 Phantom II didn't have much of a succesful kill ratio against the more nimble MiG-17's and MiG-21's. Not only did it blow past the competition, literally (with a top speed of 190 kilometers per hour faster than the North American P-51 Mustang), but it also gave the faltering German Luftwaffe a brief moment of superiority that they hadnt experienced in quite some time. Browse more videos. Siegfried Schubert claimed one B-17 of the 92nd Bomb Group (Lt. Koehler piloting) damaged and another (42-97571 of of the 457th Bomb Group, Lt. Winifred Pugh piloting) destroyed.
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